Disturbing Audio

[Django]

Before I begin, I just want to point out that I've been a fan of Cat Stevens for a few years, and am "known" on this web board. I've not just arrived post- deportation.

The whole fatwah business never really troubled me and I have accepted his explanations on the matter. However, I think there is a little bit more to it than claimed.

In Feburary 1989 he made the original comment and the whole thing erupted, according to his statement on CS.com he then issued a clarifying press release. In November 1989 on Irish TV he again supported the call for Rushdie's death, and "agreed" that what prevented him from carrying out the sentence was the law of Britain, the lack of an "Islamic state".

Perhaps he has changed his views since, and he says he was naive at the time, but it certainly didn't just slip out in one interview. Nine months after the original statement he made these comments on Irish TV.

If you past this into Real Player:

www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Fri/rte-todaywithpatkenny.smil

And go to about the 30 minute mark you will be able to hear a clip from the 1989 interview.

Michael

[Vivian]

Please, not the Rushdie issue now. Yusuf has enough to worry about without having this brought up again. He is trying to clear his name after a grave injustice was done to him.

[HardheadedSofthrtd]

Michael, thanks for that link. Until now I'd never heard the actual statement made during that program, so it is appreciated.

Back in 2003 I started a thread over at cs.com asking about the Rushdie thing. (http://catstevens.com/bboards/index.html?action=readtopic&forum=007&topic=08158&days=100000&start=26&UserID=&UserName=&SearchString=&type=) I'm posting the link here just to put my feelings below in context in case anyone wants to view the rest of the original discussion, and I do hope Christine won't mind.

What I said then still stands:

"...even if Mr. Islam had endorsed the fatwa, I firmly believe it would have been his right to do so. "I may not like what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it."
Conversely, Mr. Rushdie had every right, in my mind, to speak his mind through the publication of his book. To me, this is the essence of free speech, as well as freedon of religion."

-Joanne

[faithfullight]

Django,
Thank you for sharing this with us. I have always wanted to hear for myself what Yusuf said in this event. I needed to hear the truth, whatever it was. I can't stand deception. That was a definite "yes".

My heart has sunk, but I do think that Yusuf has learned from this event, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to explain himself so many times and now says that he does not support the fatwah against Rushdie. It's okay to make a mistake. We all make mistakes.

I must explain that the Law of God does not place the judgement in the hands of mortal people to carry out the sentence of death without the chance of repentance. God is just, o people! Only in self defense against an aggressive attacker may we be excused for the death that was first initiated by the attacker. God seeks a JUST scale of justice. Death for death only in self defense!

Divine guidance was given to warn us of our sins so that we may have the opportunity to repent before our earthly demise. God's business is our soul and trying to guide us to live upright lives. As Jesus guided, give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's. Would the judgement of the death of our soul be justified if we weren't given warning of our sins to prevent the Divine judgement? Who can punish justly if we don't know what is considered to be wrong? Sins done in ignorance can be forgiven, but intentional sin commited by those who know that it is wrong is subject to judgement.

Who is to say that men will not ever repent of their sins when they realize their err? Who are men to deny people from repentance? Have we fogotten that God is merciful and patient with us? Surely Muslims know the difference between the physical death as opposed to the spiritual death? All people will experience the "physical" or mortal death, but we don't want to die of the spiritual second death. God gives guidance which reflects the spiritual, inside nature of our soul. When we are clean inside, then we are also clean on the outside. God wishes to purify our soul! And the true life is beyond this world in the afterlife (which is spiritual). It's for real! The afterlife is no lie! I've been there! The afterlife is a heightened state of life which makes this worldly life seem like a dream. The difference in sleep and life on Earth is the same as earthlife and the after life. The after life is more awake, more alive, more intense in life! More intense in emotion, and senses!

Why is it so difficult for people to understand God's divine guidance as being "spiritual" guidance? There is a difference between the spiritual and the physical manifestation. When God's guidance is applied spiritually on the inside, then our physical manifestion (on the outside) is also guided.

[kareema113]

I listened to this audio and I do not find it disturbing. I also discovered that Islam is Truth for me and I must accept that what Allah has dictated is just that. I also have read the Holy Qur'an and have a perspective on what Br Yusuf is actually saying.

The fact that I might not understand or feel comfortable with what Allah has dictated does not change the fact that the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah (Traditions) of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh are Allah's Final Instructions for mankind. No Muslim has the right to rewirte or amend them.

Every Muslim who commits a sin can 'repent', ie ask Allah's Forgiveness, at any point and if he does so with resolution in his heart to change his ways, he will be forgiven by Allah. Over and over and over as long as he asks forgiveness and intends not to do wrong again. I do this many times a day.

It is only when a Muslim deliberately commits a disallowed act and then justifies that behavior as permissible that the penalty for a particular deed can be invoked by Allah. The penalty is lifted when the Muslim asks for forgiveness.

We as Muslims are also asked to assume the positive regarding our fellow Muslims' seemingly unIslamic behavior at least 70 times before we can suspect that this behavior is intentional.

He is also correct in that there is no real way to prosecute someone who violates Islamic Law because there is no Islamically valid government in the world today in which to do so. In Islam the state and faith are not separate of each other. A valid Islamic state is not a kingdom, emirate, dictatorship or any other thing that exists today.

Br Yusuf did not say to 'kill Rushdie'. What he did say is that a Muslim who commits the act that Rushdie has is accountable to Allah for that forbidden act unless he asks for forgiveness ('repents'). Allah tells us that the punishment for the hard-hearted individual who insists on challenging Allah's Law and does not recognize the error of his ways for this particular act is death. Rushdie is a born Muslim. Whether he practices his faith or not is something he will explain to Allah on the Last Day, but it does not change the fact that he is bound to do so. There is no dodging the bullet in Islam. It sounds to me that what Br Yusuf is saying is that he believes that Rushdie deserves to die for his crime. He also realizes that this isn't going to happen legally according to Islamic Law, so what can one really do?

In other words. if you call the tune, you have to pay the fiddler.

It is also blasphemy in Islam to claim that one is a prophet when Muslims understand that there will be none sent between Muhammad pbuh and the Day of Judgment, yet there are quite a few people alive today that claim this very thing. A close sister friend of mine was married to one of them.

Please note that I said 'alive'. These people go about their daily lives and no one makes an attempt to bump them off. Br Yusuf is right about there being priorities.

We are told in the Holy Qur'an that all souls were created by Allah at one time. Every soul was asked if it agreed that Allah is its Lord. All of them said yes.

Allah gave us free will. Muslims can choose to obey Him or not, however that doesn't change the rules each soul agreed to live by.

I am again going to recommend that a person read the Holy Qur'an in order to gain a better understanding of what Islamic Law actually is before judgement is passed on Br Yusuf because of hearsay.

There are sites online that offer Qur'an translations for the cost of shipping only, including eBay.

peace,
kareema

[faithfullight]

What would have happened to Rushdie if he didn't live in England but instead lived in an Islamic land in which a Mullah gives the fatwah to kill him without the chance of repentance? Does any ol' Mullah have the authority to decide such a sentence without permitting a man who has sinned to make amends? Is he accountable to the Mullah or to God for his sins? I don't even know what Rushdie wrote to know whether he had sinned or not. That is for God to decide as he did nothing to harm me. My faith is too strong for anyone to sway me from worshipping God.

And what does your comment about "alive" prophets have to do with this?

[FJSimon]

I've listened to this link. It is disturbing on the face of it, however I think that a clip like this one can easily be taken out of context. What Yusuf was actually doing was interpreting the Qur'an literally. Any religeous text interpreted literally would sound quite shocking. The Bible, the Torah as well.

Mr. Islam has also said that at the time he made this statement, he was only just studying this ancient text. I his think interpretation of what he was learning then may be far different now. He does temper what he said in this interview by stating that in a modern Western society the strict laws of his religion cannot be applied.

I think that the same can be said for the Bible and Torah as well.

FJS

[Vivian]

FJSimon said:

I've listened to this link. It is disturbing on the face of it, however I think that a clip like this one can easily be taken out of context. What Yusuf was actually doing was interpreting the Qur'an literally. Any religeous text interpreted literally would sound quite shocking. The Bible, the Torah as well.

Mr. Islam has also said that at the time he made this statement, he was only just studying this ancient text. I his think interpretation of what he was learning then may be far different now. He does temper what he said in this interview by stating that in a modern Western society the strict laws of his religion cannot be applied.

I think that the same can be said for the Bible and Torah as well.

FJS

This is what Yusuf has always tried to say while explaining himself. ANd yes, the same can be said for the bible, as well as the Torah. I still find it shocking that even with Yusuf's curent situation, where he is trying desparately to clear his name, this has to be brought up and shoved in his face, once again.

[faithfullight]

I agree with you FJS in that people do not understand all of God's guidance until they grow in His word. You are right to say that the Bible, Torah and Qu'ran have many "disturbing" and "shocking" statements if they are taken out of its original divine intention and processed in our mind as only literally and not as the spiritual guidance that it is. This is a reaccuring mistake of young, inexperienced, zealous minds. With maturity comes wisdom and understanding.

[kareema113]

Q:

What would have happened to Rushdie if he didn't live in England but instead lived in an Islamic land in which a Mullah gives the fatwah to kill him without the chance of repentance? Does any ol' Mullah have the authority to decide such a sentence without permitting a man who has sinned to make amends? Is he accountable to the Mullah or to God for his sins?

A:

I am again going to recommend that a person read the Holy Qur'an in order to gain a better understanding of what Islamic Law actually is before judgement is passed because of hearsay. There are sites online that offer Qur'an translations for the cost of shipping only, including eBay.

And what does your comment about "alive" prophets have to do with this?

Unfortunately I neglected to say that although unrepentant slander of an actual Prophet is indeed blasphemy, it is lower on the 'crime severity' scale than claiming to be a prophet of Islam oneself, since Allah has made it clear that Muhammad pbuh was the Last and Final Prophet until Judgement Day.

What I was saying is that there is so much ado about a man who wrote what I have been told is a very sorry piece of fiction, while plently of others who are guilty of a much more serious crime according to Islamic Law are going about their daily lives leading uninformed Muslims down the rocky path to Hell.

There are no prophets of Islam 'alive' today, only delusional individuals who claim to be. Allah will hold these people accountable on Judgement Day, along with the ignorant Muslims who followed their lies.

I have been told that Salman Rushdie's book is so unreadable that it is to his financial gain that Khomeini issued a fatwa against him. It was very good for sales that might otherwise not have occurred.

peace,
kareema

[Django]

I always got the impression that he had made one comment about Rushdie in Feb. 1989, it was blown out of proportion, he released a press release but nobody cared to listen etc.

However, this clip shows his thinking was the same nine months later, and he didn't just say the, "Quran says.." He actively supports it, and says the only thing preventing him from carrying it out is British law. So, nine months after the original comment and press release he still holds this view.

So the whole business is not as clear cut as *I* thought.

Now, the man may well have changed his position over the years and he's entitled to, he shouldn't be persecuted for what he said but he *did* say it. He did say the sentence ought to be carried out. No qualms.

If people think this is a non- issue in light of the current situation, they are way off. It is an issue. The deportation affair dragged up this clip, and the comments will surely leave an impression on people's minds.

I would say that people in Britain and Ireland are absolutely at their most sensitive about this type of thing right now because of Ken Bigley. So even, if he said it in 1989 hearing this in 2004 on the radio will certainly leave an impression.

Django

[faithfullight]

kareema113 said:

A:
I am again going to recommend that a person read the Holy Qur'an in order to gain a better understanding of what Islamic Law actually is before judgement is passed because of hearsay. There are sites online that offer Qur'an translations for the cost of shipping only, including eBay.

I have read the Qu'ran and I do not see that it gives men the authority to assume the position of divine judge and executioner for God, nor does it give any authority to a man (Mullah or whatever) to be in charge of giving orders to commit murder.

kareema113 said:

A:

Unfortunately I neglected to say that although unrepentant slander of an actual Prophet is indeed blasphemy, it is lower on the 'crime severity' scale than claiming to be a prophet of Islam oneself, since Allah has made it clear that Muhammad pbuh was the Last and Final Prophet until Judgement Day.

What I was saying is that there is so much ado about a man who wrote what I have been told is a very sorry piece of fiction, while plently of others who are guilty of a much more serious crime according to Islamic Law are going about their daily lives leading uninformed Muslims down the rocky path to Hell.

There are no prophets of Islam 'alive' today, only delusional individuals who claim to be. Allah will hold these people accountable on Judgement Day, along with the ignorant Muslims who followed their lies.

I have been told that Salman Rushdie's book is so unreadable that it is to his financial gain that Khomeini issued a fatwa against him. It was very good for sales that might otherwise not have occurred.

peace,
kareema

Like I said, I have not read Salman Rushdie's book and so I had no idea that he claimed to be a prophet. I can't comment on what Rushdie wrote because I have not read it. But this topic was not about what is contained inside of his book, but it is about Yusuf being asked about the Fatwah to kill him for writing his book. And like Django stated, Yusuf did say that he supported the idea of death to Rushdie. That was a "yes".

[faithfullight]

Django said:

However, this clip shows his thinking was the same nine months later, and he didn't just say the, "Quran says.." He actively supports it, and says the only thing preventing him from carrying it out is British law. So, nine months after the original comment and press release he still holds this view.

So the whole business is not as clear cut as *I* thought.

I agree with you, Yusuf did support the idea in this audio.

Django said:

Now, the man may well have changed his position over the years and he's entitled to, he shouldn't be persecuted for what he said but he *did* say it. He did say the sentence ought to be carried out. No qualms.

If people think this is a non- issue in light of the current situation, they are way off. It is an issue. The deportation affair dragged up this clip, and the comments will surely leave an impression on people's minds.

I would say that people in Britain and Ireland are absolutely at their most sensitive about this type of thing right now because of Ken Bigley. So even, if he said it in 1989 hearing this in 2004 on the radio will certainly leave an impression.

Django

It does bring to light why some people are still wary about what Yusuf believes today since this audio is one of the last things they heard him say while he was yet in the public view back in the day. And since there are some radical militant Muslims who interpret the Qur'an with demented views of understanding, it does make one wonder if Yusuf once learned from some of the more radical Muslims. He did say that he was zealous in the beginning of his discovery of Islam and that he rejected almost his whole prior life as though everything he had done before was evil. Yusuf admited that he heard different points of views about music in Islam and yet he chose to listen to the more strict side and rejected to play all musical instruments (except for the drum).

To hear Yusuf admit that he supports the idea of death to Rushdie certainly causes people to be curious about where he stands today. Did he used to follow the radical view and where is he today? Is he somewhere in between the radical and the moderate? It seems that he has now chosen the moderate, peaceful view since he says that he is "a man of peace and denounce all forms of terrorism and injustice." So whether he started out on the more strict, radical view of Islam, it does seem that he has come around full circle to embrace peace now.

[Vivian]

Well, I guess Yusuf's feelings and wishes that this matter be dropped, really don't matter, do they. Thank you so much for clarifying that.

[dottie]

Thank you Django and Faithfullight for such enlightening messages.

Many, many times famous people have said/done things that they later on regretted, i.e., joining the Communist Party after WWII, as an example. It seems that when they very publically explained the reason for what they did/said, people accepted their explanation and moved past it.

However, if an honest regret or appology was never
expressed, then people did not forget. It was as if they had not really changed their minds and Charlie Chapman is an example of what I mean. He lost his fans because he never denounced the Communist Party or voiced regret that he had joined.

It is not Yusuf's prerogative for people to just *forget* this incident, but maybe something good can result from the latest incident and people will be made more aware of all the good that he has done in the past 15 yrs.

[Vivian]

catstevens.com/articles/00236/index.html

Fine. Read Yusuf's point once again, of how much he regrets what happened, and he is pleading with people to let this rest, so he can get on with his life and accomplish things that are important to him(HINT) his schools, and his charities, and more important, clearing his name of these bogus and trumped up mess that he is in, that is totally unjust and unfair.

[faithfullight]

dottie said:

Thank you Django and Faithfullight for such enlightening messages.

Many, many times famous people have said/done things that they later on regretted, i.e., joining the Communist Party after WWII, as an example. It seems that when they very publically explained the reason for what they did/said, people accepted their explanation and moved past it.

However, if an honest regret or appology was never
expressed, then people did not forget. It was as if they had not really changed their minds and Charlie Chapman is an example of what I mean. He lost his fans because he never denounced the Communist Party or voiced regret that he had joined.

It is not Yusuf's prerogative for people to just *forget* this incident, but maybe something good can result from the latest incident and people will be made more aware of all the good that he has done in the past 15 yrs.

You are welcome dottie. I hope that Yusuf will turn this around to a positive message of hope and peace. I hope that somehow, someway, his life experiences have taught him how some people use religion to do wrong things in the name of religion. I hope that his message of peace can come across and conquor the hate and brainwashing that has been causing chaos in our world. Let peace reign and let his message prevail against the lies of deception that hate feeds.

[boneheadedwoman]

Thanks for that interesting link. Certainly sheds a little more light on the subject, doesn't it? No gray area here: nine months later, he still feels the same way.
To those people who wish we would drop the subject, I, for one, wish I could. But you see, Cat Stevens meant an awful lot to me in the 1970's. He still does. Because of this, it bothers me to hear him say things that seem so inimical to all that I felt he stood for back in The Day. As an American, I feel very strongly in favor of freedom of speech, religion and press. I'm very much against censorship, and the idea that some one should be put to death for writing something blasphemous is crazy, IMHO. Part of the problem for me, is the dependence on Scripture in the formulation of opinions, and morality. Just don't get it. It's immoral to kill, but if some one is a blasphemer, let's stone him. There's a disconnect somewhere in there, and it bothers me to no end that some one I cared so much about can't see that! He's obviously found inner peace, and happiness in that life-style, and I'm pleased for him. But that's why I (for one) can't just drop the subject! Sorry!

[faithfullight]

I understand you Boneheadedwoman.



peace,
Faithfullight

[boneheadedwoman]

Thanks, Faithful.

[Vivian]

It is really a shame that people still won't let this rest, even after seeing how hurt Yusuf is.